Emma's back! I chat to the Naked Doula about the birth of her second child. Whilst the birth didn't take the path she had hoped and dreamed of, Emma's story is one of tenacity, faith, instinct, intuition and power, and demonstrates the importance of knowing yourself, your body, and your options. This story is raw, emotional and inspirational. Thank you so much Emma for your vulnerability and authenticity sharing such a powerful birth story!
We also talk about Emma's new book, the Fearless Birth Book, which is available to buy at https://geni.us/FearlessBirthBook
0:04
Welcome to the Better Birth Podcast.
My name's Erin and I'm a hypno, birthing and antenatal instructor, birth activist and all round birth geek.
In this podcast I chat to experts in the field of pregnancy and birth, debunking myths around birth, diving into the research around maternity care, and exploring what is it that means you're more likely to have a positive birthing experience.
0:28
If you enjoyed this podcast, do feel free to buy me a coffee and fund my caffeine habits.
Link to my Buy me a Coffee page is in the podcast info.
Enjoy this episode.
0:52
Welcome to the Better Birth Podcast.
We have a repeat guest today, which is very exciting.
I have the wonderful Emma, the naked dealer who has come along to finally tell birth story.
Welcome.
Thank you so much.
And do you know what this is actually the first, then this is like the first.
1:10
I've saved it.
I've saved it for this.
I've not spoken about my birth story on any of the podcast at the moment.
Like obviously, unless you're on Instagram then you do know.
But here we.
Are I'm sick.
I I've been dying to hear your birth story because I think it's a really, really important one.
1:31
And anybody that listens to my podcast will know that I have a huge, varied range of birth stories.
I do not just focus on one type of birth story.
I think yours is a really, really, really fantastic story to share.
So do you want, where do you want to start, do you want to start and talk a little bit about what your your preferences and your plans were and then kind of go there?
1:57
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So obviously with George.
So Charlie my first was a breach boy and he I just felt the best thing for me at that time was an elective C-section.
2:15
I wasn't you know didn't think they were very competent with breech birth and it just felt like the right choice.
I had a great, amazing incredible euphoric C-section with Charlie.
But obviously my work, you know, even though it supports all births primarily, I get hundreds and hundreds of messages and I've worked with countless women and families and supported vaginal birth.
2:42
So I absolutely, desperately wanted a vaginal birth.
I was so do you know what?
All I could see in my head was like this, this image of just my body, like working and him moving down my birth canal.
2:59
And then I was like so excited about crowning.
Literally, I.
You really were.
I remember we all went for lunch and it was all you would talk about.
Literally, I know because I was just like, wow.
Like, it's that very moment that you're on.
3:16
It's like between the Worlds.
It's between worlds.
And it's just, wow.
Do you know what I mean?
That's incredible.
My body's done the work and now my baby is fucking crowning.
Like it's on the.
We're on the edge of being like inside this womb to like being outside.
3:34
And I just.
Yeah.
And I just wanted to feel it.
And I wanted to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So of course my preferences were a spontaneous vaginal birth because I know statistically that that's the best possible way that I'm going to get a intervention free or intervention less birth experience.
4:03
I also chose that wanted to birth at home because again, statistically this was the safest place even for a VBAC, you know, so that was literally in my mind from the very start.
4:18
I mean I did plan I did want a home birth with my first birth.
So it wasn't like I, you know, did a a full 360.
So the planning begun.
Now, I literally from that first appointment when I went in to see the midwife, it was the midwife that I loved from my first pregnancy that I only got to see a few times.
4:41
But I was like, right, I made sure at that appointment with her that she was the only one I was going to see.
I think this is a really important point because why I don't think we get to people, don't think they get to decide, but actually can have that conversation about continuity of care.
4:57
And I was like, I don't want to see anyone else.
If my appointments don't fall on your days, then we'll change it to fall on your days.
That's it.
You know for that first appointment I had all the conversations.
I said this is what I want to do.
5:15
I understand it's out of guidelines.
I understand that I'm down as consultant LED because it's a class as AV back.
I understand XY and Z and I did understand my options and I really, really believe that because I started.
I mean obviously in the work that we do, you know we are already quite informed, but the conversation started really early with my care providers because I wanted to be so clear and really open and honest.
5:41
And I said to her, listen, I'm going to be really open and honest and I want to continue that relationship so that we're on the same page.
So from that point all was good, like you know they knew where I stood and I knew I was going to be getting a call from the consultant.
5:59
I knew I was going to be getting a call from home birth team, etcetera, etcetera.
But from that point, I just carried on preparing myself, mentally, mentally, physically, seeing a chiropractor, osteopath, you know, doing all, doing all the things that you could possibly do.
6:17
I was like, there is nothing that is stopping me from getting this vaginal birth.
And if anyone can just whip a baby out like it's me.
Like I understand oxytocin deeper and better than like nearly all of the pop.
6:37
Like pop pop.
What do you call it?
Pop.
Population.
Population.
Literally like it's.
Just my most favorite thing to talk, like, I just fucking love it so much.
And I was like, yeah, this is this is going to be great.
6:52
And it took me back to my mom's both with me.
And I thought, Oh my God, like my mom was like just, you know, oh, I've got the, I'm feeling it like things happening.
She went and had a bath, went downstairs like had fish and chips.
And then she was like, oh oh, I I think we need to go now.
7:11
Then they got to the hospital 20 minutes and then got in there 18 minutes later.
I was born and I just had this like, feeling that this is going to be me, like this is going to be me.
And I visualized it every fucking day anyhow.
7:28
So time went on and I created my birth preferences and it was literally, of course, home birth, spontaneous labour.
Regardless of, you know, how far along I was going to go.
Yeah.
Did I ever think that I was going to be that far along?
7:44
Absolutely not.
How far along did I get to?
That's 42 + 5.
But you know what?
It's going on.
But I'll go into that because it's ever so funny.
Like I just find the whole thing around that ever so funny.
8:00
But I'll go into that because I I when once I hit 42 weeks, I was literally like, I'm all right now, like I was chill.
But anyway, so yes, the time went on and I was doing my birth preferences and my birth plan use my visual plan I've got.
8:17
And of course I covered every single base.
So that was my initial plan.
This is what I wanted to do.
However, if I was in a situation where I needed help or something wasn't right, then I skipped the whole induction thing like I'm not messing about with that.
8:38
Not interested like that was just like in no circumstances was I ever going to accept an induction would I discuss a membrane sweep.
Possibly, depending on where I was in in my journey and if I was very late on.
We know that even though it's a bit of a a bit of a fucker, it's more likely to be something that works later.
9:00
Later on, yeah, but still in my in the front of my mind, I was thinking I absolutely just want everything to do its own thing in its own time.
So that was damn great.
No induction great.
So C-section, these my preferences.
9:16
Great.
Wanted a maternal lad.
If it was C-section, really wanted to try and experience me pulling George out my belly.
And in an emergency situation, Baby was never to leave Dad.
Yeah.
In any, under any circumstance.
So I covered every single base.
9:33
I was literally taking radical responsibility for my birth.
I also stated within that that if midwives were not able to come to me within my home that I would free birth my baby.
And that's up to them whether they wanted to sort that deal with that whatever.
9:52
I was taking radical responsibility of myself and my birth and my baby, regardless of what the outcome, you know, was.
So that was that.
And I made sure that I was going through every possible way that I could in that maternity system to have the conversations, to talk about my plan to get it onto the system.
10:15
Take fucking picture.
You know, like I yeah, I arranged a planning meeting, you know went in spoke to the to the labour, the labour ward like head midwife and head of midwifery and all that jazz.
10:33
So I did that, had the conversations went through the risks, pros, cons and all that.
Great.
Then the home birth team came well actually my midwife came to have a conversation was bringing a home birth midwife to have the conversation about mid about hope, home birth.
10:51
But a manager came along.
That was interesting because there was, there was a quite a lot of sort of coercive language in in the conversation there.
But again, I think when you feel confident in knowing what you can, what you can't do and what birth entails, it is quite easy to step up or stand up for yourself.
11:16
I think that when you, when you're not quite there yet, it's really easy to be like, oh, I'm not, you know, I don't know or that, yeah, you know, I'll go in and going along with something.
But of course it's me.
And I was literally, like, fucking don't tell me, you know?
11:33
They can say what they like, but it doesn't mean you have to do it right.
Yeah, exactly.
This is policy, not law.
So, so that happened and then obviously the normal things start to happen later on in pregnancy like the phone call from the consultant.
11:49
The whole placenta is going to fail jazz.
And you know conversations of which you know I asked for specific evidence on I I I'm really, it's always really interesting I find to actually ask and I mean you've been here lots of times to actually ask that specific trust what they're basing it on and that I'd really love to see the research around that so I can make an informed decision.
12:16
And I think she couldn't send me anything about the placenta, obviously, but there was something else about, I don't know what it was, but she sent it over and it was this tiny study that was like obstetric lead in Switzerland or something scraping.
12:35
The barrel for research.
She scraping the barrel.
It was like so old as well.
And I was so respectfully, I spoke to her and I said respectfully, here's my I actually replied to her and I was like, here's what I'm basing my choices on.
And I was just really clear with her and actually from that point, not for that she was.
12:55
She was, you know, she she's speaking about what she thinks and what she knows to be true.
Right.
But after sending, sending that, she was like, OK, fair enough, this is what you want to do.
That's fine.
You know, there was no back and forth.
13:11
If she'd have come back to me and said and tried to argue with me, I would have changed consultants there and then like just because you can do and I'm not being, you know, under any, under any influence from someone who is going to try and fuck with my experience.
13:29
And it's not listening to you.
Yeah, exactly.
Just ignoring me.
And then in that situation, when you've got someone like that on your hand, it's very easy to curse you when you're in the fucking birth room.
And when you're vulnerable, things happen.
You don't fucking know what's going on.
13:45
No, I wasn't prepared to be that person.
So I continued on and it continued on and it continued on and I went past and I was having all the niggles.
I was having all the feelings.
14:00
I was having everything.
My pelvis was great.
He was so low down and I was like, he's going to come early, he's going to come early if we can, didn't come early.
He got past 40 weeks and I was like, it's all right, we're all good.
We're still, you know, everything's great.
But it continued on.
14:17
I got to 41 weeks and I was thinking, fuck, and that 41 week mark, I had such a wobble because that 41 week mark for me, I don't know.
It was just like this is me now.
I'm in this situation.
14:33
I'm being watched by shit loads of people on the Internet.
Everyone's like what's going to happen?
What's happening with them is birth and I've got to try and navigate the medical system and me in pregnancy and it's just hard because at that.
14:49
Point.
It's a hell of a lot of pressure.
And I mean by that point in pregnancy, especially when you're that far along your brain.
Like, we know we are super susceptible, aren't we?
But at that point, it's so easy to just go, yes, not like it's just easy to just give in, isn't it?
15:06
And just be like, Oh my, like, please, like I need help kind of thing.
So I had to have a pep talk with myself, obviously.
And I continued on.
I opted for some, like when I got to, I said I'm fine, I feel fine, baby feels fine.
15:28
But when I get to 41 + 6, I'll come in for, you know, scan or whatever or no.
I'll have a discussion about that.
I felt fine and I'm super, super in tune with my intuition and I trust myself absolutely, completely.
15:50
So I knew that if anything was like felt wrong or didn't feel good, that I'd be straight in there.
So 41 + 6 came and went.
So I got 42 weeks and actually the anxiety dropped because I knew statistically that I was like, kind of in a safe zone.
16:15
Now that's kind of like, OK, this is cool.
Like, I knew the things to look out for.
I knew that my risk of like meconium and things like that was, you know, was a possibility with him being so far along.
And I understood everything.
16:31
I knew my choices, basically.
So at this point, at 42 weeks, I was literally thinking like this cannot much go on much fucking longer.
Everything felt good, my body felt good, I was dancing around.
16:46
Still I was happy there was no issues.
But I did start to notice when I was going to the toilet, like I was weeing extra when I was after after I'd finished weeing.
And I thought, well this is weird, like maybe it's just pressure on my bladder.
17:05
I didn't realise until like probably 42 + 2 that my water started trickling and then I was really fucking excited.
The same day I ended up going in for a well-being scan.
17:22
Absolutely great it.
I knew all the things to look out for, you know, with the questions and with things that were going on, but actually it was a really positive appointment so that was great.
She confirmed.
My waters were broken, They wanted to keep me in.
Of course I said no, I'm going home.
17:38
Things are starting, so why would I need to be in?
Why mess with it?
Why mess with it?
Like my body is doing the things.
It's doing the things.
So I went home.
So that was that was on on the morning of this particular day.
17:57
Oh no, was this?
Yes.
I'd started feeling niggles.
And it was the following day, around 1:00, it started and it didn't start like every half an hour it went straight in.
It was like every 7 minutes, just bam, which I love because I really do think that that's particularly common in later pregnancies like that.
18:20
And the body's just like, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to have this baby.
And I literally was like, Oh my God, I'm having this baby tonight.
I was like, I'm having this baby tonight.
So the contractions were coming, and I was literally.
So I was loving life also in life.
18:39
I was like, yes, I think they're coming, you know?
And I was just doing my thing, carrying on.
And I was like, it's happening.
I was dancing.
I was just doing whatever I wanted to do, hurrying on with my life.
It was great.
So it continued on and it was like getting more intense as the day was going on about 6:00.
19:00
So it'd been about, yeah, it's been about 5-5 hours.
By 6:00 I was like, yeah, this is, this is feeling good, you know, like I absolutely would labour at 10 million *.
I I really, really, really, really was enjoying it.
Put Charlie to bed having to take moments.
19:18
Fine.
And I was like, do you know what?
I'm going to go to sleep now.
I felt like Christmas.
It felt like if you go to sleep now.
It'll be then.
In the morning, yeah.
And then in the night, you're going to wake up and pop out a baby.
I was literally so like just an excited child.
19:37
So I got into bed and like, I laid down and I was like, yeah, they're still coming.
Starting to, like they were more regular by this point.
So we're talking like every 5 minutes.
And I was like, yeah, so I like, just let my doula know.
19:54
And my photographer, I was like, just so you know, like this has been happening.
And I went to sleep 2:00 in the morning.
I'm literally, I can't sleep.
I'm being woken up by them.
They are feeling more intense, a little bit more uncomfortable and I'm having to really like think about what's going on.
20:16
So I'm like, yes, like this is fantastic.
And I'm thinking, do you know?
And obviously as a birth worker you literally, it's your unique experience and your body's very individual.
But I was literally taking that and I was thinking right, I know where my body's at and I'm thinking about all the other bursts and all the other situations and all the experience and I was like this where I am right now.
20:42
I'm thinking like, you know, we are, we're getting really close and this is like this is really, this is so interesting, which I realise now, which which we haven't spoke about.
So I've gone to the toilet and I've like had a bloody show like a bit of like mucus pose to come away.
21:01
I'm like fucking loving life.
Like never experienced that with Charlie.
So I was like so excited taking fucking pictures and all sorts.
I was like look at this, it's fascinating.
I didn't like you are wildly strange like weirdo And I was like yes, but it's incredible.
21:19
So I was doing that whilst I was contracting and and I kept having to go to the toilet and more waters was coming and I was like, this is like I was literally just so happy.
So by this point I literally thought to myself I was going to have this baby.
21:39
Like I don't even feel like I need to call anyone.
Yeah, like you know, it all feels good.
Like it doesn't feel like, you know, doesn't feel like I need to call anyone.
So I carried on and the feeling really, really intense.
21:57
I was having to focus through them, and then I had a massive push of Waters on my bed and there was meconium and I was like, shit.
But then I was like, well, actually.
And then I was like, well, actually, I kind of expected there would be meconium being this far on.
22:16
But what I couldn't determine was whether it was fresh, whether it just happened or whether it wasn't.
And I knew that that was a big indicator of, you know, possibly needing some help.
22:33
So I texted a friend of mine who's very experienced in birth and was a midwife for many, many, many, many years, and I said, what the hell is this like?
Tell me, tell me, help me, guide me like I can't.
22:49
I don't know what to do.
Even though, funnily enough, when I think back instinctively, I knew I wanted to go in.
I knew I needed to go in.
I think it was just in that moment, sort of seeking that outside validation that I didn't because I didn't want to.
23:11
I wanted to have that baby now at home.
I was so close.
So the message response was, I'm not quite sure.
I think you should go in.
So off I trotted into the hospital, got there, got to reception, showed like, we all had a big light, you know, it was quite fun, you know, got there, opened my puppy pads up.
23:34
I was like, look, everyone, you know, and everyone's like, yeah.
And I, because I genuinely believe that because of all the conversations I've had, all the things that were on my records, all the notes, all the pictures of, you know, preferences and everything.
23:51
It was really simple for me.
And I'm not saying I definitely don't think it's because everyone was like, oh, it's the no could do that.
I don't even think half of them knew.
Like probably.
I don't know if any of them knew who I was.
You know, I don't know.
I've worked with obviously some of them in those situations.
24:08
But you know, I don't know.
I just do you know when when it's like that situation, you just think that no one knows you like you just think you please don't.
No one know me.
So I'm there gone into a room just to be monitored make sure he's OK, like checked.
24:23
It's all good.
It's fresh.
Game on.
My God consultant comes in.
My consultant fabulous, like great time in.
And she said, you know, I think that we want to carry on.
I was like, well, I don't know whether I should just go home.
And she said well would prefer you not to go home.
24:43
But I said right, well stick me in a nice Midwest midwife LED room like I want, you know, all the the works.
I want a bath and everything.
Paul I want to relax and I'll see how I feel.
24:59
If it doesn't feel comfortable for me then I really want to go home because I want to be where feels most comfortable.
And by this point, by this point, something had changed and my contractions felt different.
25:17
I realise now what this is.
So I've been taken, been LED to this, you know, I had this most wonderful midwife come to me on the, like on the changeover, just as they were changing over.
She took me to the room and I instantly felt like, yeah, I can, I think I can settle here.
25:35
It was gorgeous.
I felt really good.
Had the space, didn't feel under pressure or anything like that.
Find the doula and the photographer and they've, you know, they've joined me.
So by this point I'm having these really weird contractions.
25:56
I can only call them weird because they changed and they felt really punchy.
They felt like I was being punched in the cervix.
Now it's it's hard because when it's you in your own body compared to other people and you're working with other people it's it's interesting how you don't notice or maybe in that time what that could possibly have been.
26:25
I just thought oh these have gone all sporadic and or you know maybe this is just like the last part of my active stage or whatever.
What I realise now, and what we realise since having the outcome that I had, is that my uterus was actually pushing.
26:49
Those were pushing, those were pushy, those were like literally I was, I literally had to jump off.
Like if I was sitting down, I had to jump up.
I couldn't possibly sit down.
I was like mooing, I was like moaning.
27:06
I was moving and I was like, and actually being in that moment when I go back, I was so weird.
And I was like, hey, like, this is like baby stage, like how I'm reacting and how I'm coming out and how I'm like, I literally can remember.
27:25
But they were so sporadic.
They were like on and off.
And they weren't consistent.
And that's what confused me because I was like, this is weird, but I was literally having to stand up.
I was having to stand up.
I was having to lean over.
I was having to really focus.
And it was making me laugh, actually, because I was like, oh, this is like, this hurts, you know, like this.
27:44
This feels intense.
And I was working through them and I was, and then I was like laughing about it because I just thought, oh, like this is interesting, you know, still trusted my my body completely. 24 hours went by.
Nothing.
That's a long time.
28:01
Yeah, 24 hours went by.
And.
I was like, this is weird.
I was like something isn't doesn't feel right.
So I said, right, I'm going to have a vaginal exam.
And see, you know, I want to know.
Yeah, I want to know because this is just, it feels strange.
28:19
And I said I'd never have a vaginal exam.
But in that moment, I really needed to understand what was happening.
So she did so.
And my cervix was shot.
In fact, I think it was open, like by half a Senate.
She couldn't get a finger up.
It was a face with some, like, weird bumps on it.
28:38
But it was shot.
It was fucking shot.
I was like, that's impossible.
I was like, that's actually actually impossible.
Like, that's just, I said like, no, it's impossible.
I couldn't believe it.
28:55
And I was like, right, OK.
And then I something came over me and I was like, I mean, you've got 24 hours, like literally to just fucking let go, enjoy yourself, like have this ox toasting party.
And I started, like, actually thinking, have I gone over the top?
Maybe maybe I've got too overexcited And I don't know, like, I don't know what's going on.
29:15
So 20 more, 24 hours more went by.
I was having these really weird, again, sporadic like contractions.
They were really intense and literally they were looking at me.
I think people are looking at me as if to say like what?
29:33
We surely can't.
But do you know what I mean?
Because I'd just been had a a vagina exam and my cervix was shut.
So I mean, you're not even in established labour and I was just like, no.
Feeling like you're in the final stages of labour?
Literally, I'm like, no, this is not I I just couldn't.
29:52
I couldn't fathom it.
I couldn't understand it.
It wasn't making sense to me because how could that be physically possible?
And I felt a bit like they were like, what you, you know, I don't know.
30:11
It just felt and I and do you know what now I think back just think how many, how many women are told like, oh you're not in established labour when actually it doesn't really matter what the fucking service is doing at all.
It literally doesn't.
30:28
And we we know that it things can change very, very quickly.
This is why I had like pure hope.
We know things can change very quickly.
So I just thought, wow, we're just going to go with it.
But yeah, the amount of people that are in that situation who feel disheartened, lack of oxytocin, who end up needing intervention purely because someone turning around saying you're not an established labour, even though they've literally felt and they physically are feeling themselves in established labour.
30:58
And I fucking hate that term anyway, because it's just there's no literally there is Labour.
Labour right.
No, it doesn't fit into boxes.
It doesn't.
It absolutely doesn't.
I I've had a client before where it's been, it's been like there's been no in between stage.
31:20
There's literally been no, there's there's actually not even a a stage.
You know it's just been like straight in bam, bam, bam and and done.
And we know that labour is really not linear and the fact that we follow textbooks as we do it does.
31:39
But yeah, we could go into that up and we all day long.
So 24 hours more have gone past and during this time bearing in mind like by this point I am 42 + 442 + 440.
31:54
I don't know, because it's it was blurry by that point.
But I'm four.
Oh, no.
On this particular day, the last day I was 42 + 5.
I've been in the bath.
I've been for walks I'd done.
I'd had a midwife do like spinning babies, like on me.
I'd done the works and the consultant came in.
32:11
She was like, Emma, this isn't working.
Like what?
You know.
What do you want to do?
Because this you've been in for like 3 days now, like you know.
Don't just say, like how amazing being having contractions that intense for that long is just testament to mindset.
32:35
Look, I mean people worry about being in labour for a few hours and having like intense contractions and you went days.
I know, I know.
And do you know what?
I didn't?
There was not one point where I thought I can't do this.
32:52
Like the the IT just never entered my head because honestly like I was sitting there welcoming.
I was like so welcoming.
I was like, yes.
I was like please, like just more like give me more like I'm here like my bot.
33:10
Like I'm, I'm so like into it.
And this is the this is the whole point isn't it about, you know mindset as well.
If you're so I think if you're.
So what's the word like immersed in the beauty of something?
33:26
How could it possibly feel painful?
How could it possibly feel painful?
It's almost like do you know when people go for tattoos?
Yeah.
And they like some people are literally like, oh, I just love it.
33:43
It just.
How do you fall asleep, I mean.
Actually, people do sleep through through them and it's it's the same thing, you know, it's that, you know, knowing that nothing bad's going to happen and knowing that you know you're you're safe and you're choosing to do this and you're just, you know, you know what's going on.
34:01
So yeah, no, I do appreciate that because it was a long time.
It was a long time and all this time I've been in this, you know, beautiful room, I've been out and about, you know, eating, drinking, bearing in mind I was classed as high risk meconium waters.
34:20
They never had anyone that long, you know, over that length of time before in the hospital.
You know, I was pretty much like the talk of the ward because there's like, what the hell?
But I'd already had these conversations, so everyone knew the score.
34:39
Everyone knew the score.
So yeah, I was still doing everything that anyone would do in their birth, regardless of my risk status or not, because overall I was healthy and overall my baby was healthy.
34:55
And I was having intermittent monitoring just to check that.
But I was definitely not like consistent monitoring and you know, and all that.
And I, yeah, I had a pool, had a bath, did what, whatever I was doing, all felt, you know, all felt fine.
35:12
But I knew something deep inside just wasn't right.
Something was a bit strange.
And the consultant came in and she said, you know what we're going to do?
I really would like to use dial up on rods, you know, just to help open your cervix, which you know is probably the most natural.
35:30
I hate using the word natural for induction because I don't think they can really go together, but.
Least pharmacological.
Yes, perfect way to induce or you know, open the cervix without using anything you know.
Harsh.
35:46
So by this point I had had another regional exam and nothing had changed.
The 24 hour, Another 24 hour.
Yeah, literally.
So the whole time, like from start to finish, it'd been through like 3 days I think, and nothing had changed.
36:04
And I was thinking, this is something isn't right here, something isn't right.
And I really had to like tap in and just TuneIn with myself.
And I laid there and she was talking to me about induction and I looked up.
36:19
I can remember looking up at the stars above the there's like they have like a like a star like thing above the pool, above the birth pool can remember looking up at them.
And I think I was just thinking that so many things like obviously my mum passed away in my first pregnancy and I was trying to have this experience and I didn't understand.
36:45
And I was really getting a bit confused and angry and upset by this point.
And I looked up and I think I just thought I was thinking about my mum and thinking about my situation and just really trying to just like tell me like what do I do.
And I just had this massive like just this gut feeling that I needed to go for AC section and I needed to go now.
37:10
So I said to her, I need to go for AC section and I need to go now.
And she's like, OK, she's like and she was actually not on.
She was like, well, I'm, I'm in clinic, but let me see if I can, you know, arrange that.
37:27
And I said, yeah, I said, but I said, listen, it was quite funny because I said, listen, I said I know I've broken all your guidelines and I know that I've gone over everything that you've ever experienced, but I want to go one step further.
37:45
And she was like Fox.
I think she was just sitting there thinking Fox sake, like just hurry up and get this woman out of this hospital.
And I said I want to pull him out myself.
And she was like, right, It'd never been done in this particular hospital before.
38:06
And this is what we we call a maternal LED Cesarean.
And I was like, yeah, I want to pull him out myself, go big or go home, right.
And I think by this point I think she was just like, well fucking whatever, Do you know what I mean?
38:21
Just give her whatever she wants, give her whatever she wants to.
She was like, OK, literally.
So she's gone off.
She's spoken to the team and clearly think it's upset people.
So they come back and they're trying to say that theatre team aren't comfortable with two people there, they're not comfortable with photos, they're not comfortable with this that and it was, it was a bit of a struggle at first and we tried to argue like what you're on about, like I can take photos at my birth, like that's not a law, like you know, and actually I can have two people there, just don't bring the fucking student in there, like just kick him out.
39:02
But they were arguing about it and I thought, I wonder, like, it's just interesting, isn't it, how people react or how people are triggered?
Because here I am in that situation.
But do you know what?
It made me feel a bit uneasy because I thought, I'm just, I'm about to go into this, this theatre with this team who I'm trusting with my body and my baby, but they're not.
39:24
They're already showing me distrust in, you know, you.
Don't want to go into like a hostile environment, do you?
Right, exactly.
Because even if you're going for AC section, how you feel your environment, like you know, your mindset, everything still has a massive impact on how your body's reacting, how much blood you lose, you know what your recovery is like.
39:50
Every single thing is impacted and people don't realise this often.
They'll go, I don't need to do anything or I don't need to do a course or I don't need to do anything.
I don't need to do mindset because I'm having C-section, I'm having induction.
Actually you need it more so.
Yeah.
You need it more so, so so at this point when I said that she left the room and I cried so hard because I was just so many things were going through my my mind and I was like I can never I can never go back to my Instagram again That's that's literally like I was literally like I I can't, like I can't My bodies failed me.
40:35
My bodies failed me.
Like I can't tell people that I I just can't I can't share it.
And I I was just so upset and I rang a friend and she was my dual a mentor and I I was like what is going on?
Like this is not, it's not fair.
40:54
Like you can't, you know take my mum away.
My first pregnancy, you know, I have to go through those situations and then now I'm here and what I fucking everything's been thrown at me and now this is the final fucking straw.
I just yeah.
41:09
And she turned around to me and she said, Emma, you're forged like in fire, and you're basically paving the way for everyone else.
Yeah.
And that really stuck with me.
And I was like, OK, but in the moment you're kind of like like any shit that happens to you, you know, like any kind of event that is uncomfortable or, you know, with emotion, you kind of like, well, that's not fucking fair.
41:37
That's not fair.
I don't, I don't want that, you know?
So, you know, it's it took me a little bit of time and I had to try and just, I felt like I was just like trying to save face.
41:53
And I was like, right, Emma, you're going to be meeting your baby very soon.
And it was my birthday, funnily enough.
And I was like, maybe this is just all happening and it needs to happen this way.
It's my birthday and this baby's coming today.
42:13
So off I went to theatre and I walked into the room and I just burst out crying again because it was the exact room that I'd given birth to Charlie.
42:32
And it just took me back to to that moment and the grief of losing my mum and I was just like or like.
It was just really overwhelming, like it felt a bit blurry.
I sat there and the anaesthetist is like obviously talking.
42:52
Too bad.
Fucking have no idea what he said.
He's just putting the cannula in and talking me through.
Still, I fucking cannot tell you what he said to me.
I don't know, because I felt like I just wasn't.
I was just wasn't there and it felt a bit blurry.
43:11
And even though everything was good, like I made every single choice, you know, I made every single choice.
And as I tell the story, you know, it is a very incredible, very positive story, but it still can affect you in certain ways, you know.
43:32
So I'm lying down and I can feel the, I can feel the spinal block, like just going of my body, like I recognise the feeling.
But that feeling, and you'll understand this, Erin.
43:49
That feeling instantly triggered an emotion in my brain that took me straight back to me birthing my first child without my mum.
And I started to panic and my body started to react and I was a bit, like shaky and I was panicking.
44:08
I thought I couldn't breathe.
I was like, it's too high.
I was going, it's too high, it's too high, it's too high.
I can't breathe.
I was thinking that they'd done something, they'd injected me wrong and my lungs were shutting down.
I literally felt like and I've not shared this before but that's what it felt like.
44:27
And they were like you're fine, like everything's fine everything's perfect.
Like it's going really well.
I didn't feel like that.
And I I closed my eyes and all of a sudden, and similarly before I just told that part in in my first birth with Charlie, I closed my eyes and I took myself to my birth zone, to my place that I'd been envision, envision envisioning.
44:57
And I sat there with my mum by the waters holding her hands until until Charlie came.
So I knew that maybe I'd experienced something similar, but this was just so strange.
45:12
It was like, I closed my eyes and all of a sudden it was like this film reel of all my memories with my mum as a child.
And it just like, flicks through.
Like it was like hundreds, Do you know what I mean?
45:30
Just 111 after another.
Like, it was so fast.
And I don't know, like, it felt like I just wasn't it.
It felt like I was in between, like not even being alive.
I know that sounds really weird.
45:45
Like it felt like I was in between some kind of fucking plane.
Like, I was just, I don't know, it was just a really strange feeling.
And it felt like forever, but it literally wasn't.
And I think like, I can't even remember because I'm sure it was literally only like 5 minutes.
46:05
Because you know that once, once you're all good to go, the process of getting baby out is super fast.
You know, it's super fast.
So this is happening and I'm like Terry and and then they they've like put the gloves on my hands and they're going right.
46:24
It's time.
It's time.
And I've opened my eyes and I can't see.
I'm going.
I can't see.
I can't see.
I can't see.
It's like I can't see.
And I felt like I couldn't see, you know, I felt like I couldn't like lift, lift my head up like to see.
And then I saw him and it was like he hadn't been born.
46:45
Like he didn't even know.
He was just like, and I was like, Oh my God.
And I was like going and I took him and I pulled him from my belly.
Oh yeah.
And by the way, so the.
47:01
So during this point, photos were being taken because they'd agreed for one person to come in.
And my husband at the time, like, who is so super stubborn, was like, well, F you, the photographer's going in and then we're going to do a swap over.
47:20
I know he was like, I just want to capture the memories, bless him.
So here I am pulling George out of my belly and I pulled him to my chest and he was a, he was a big chunky baby.
And I was like, and I just put him on me.
47:36
And like, as soon as I'd put him near me, he literally woke up and he was like, you know, like, I don't really beat the world.
That's what it felt like.
It was just like an instant, like here I am, which he is very much like he is now.
47:54
One year down the line, here I am, you know all is well, like.
I'm finally here.
I'm.
Finally here.
Yeah.
And obviously he, you know, he was covered in baconium.
He had, you know, all his bits and bobs on him.
But you know, as I stated in my in my preferences, I don't want anyone to be touching him like no one is to touch this child.
48:18
And I sat there, I laid there, sorry.
And I had him on me.
And that's where he stayed.
For the majority of the C-section being done.
I'd also opted for vaginal seeding because my first, and we've had these conversations before, he was so severe with CMPA cow's milk protein allergy that I really wanted George to have all the beneficial bacteria from my birth canal, which builds up during pregnancy.
48:50
So got into recovery and I was giving my like, it's so weird.
It is actually really weird when you have to wipe them.
It's really strange because it feels so natural to do that.
But there I was in the midwife was looking at me a bit like, OK And there I'm just wiping him down.
49:13
But yeah, I was there and I've.
I've got him.
But and it's it was amazing.
And everyone's like, wow.
And the photographers show me these photos and and I'm just like feeling really numb.
I felt really numb.
49:31
And everyone's celebrating.
Everyone's like, look at what you did, you know?
Like, and now I do like completely.
I'm like, Oh my God, like, look at what I achieved.
Look at what I did and look at what you know.
But at the time, I felt really, really normal.
I was like, this is, I'm not, I just can't talk about birth ever, ever again.
49:52
Few days later, the cons me and the consultant were emailing.
She was sending me over what she had found and she said to me when we opened you up, there's quite a lot of fluid.
So there's obviously a lot of pressure and your uterus was completely thinned out at the bottom, and all my muscles were obviously the muscles of the uterus were all at the top.
50:19
All drawn up all.
Drawn up at the top, which we know like that uterus was literally ready to be pushing a baby out.
So it should have.
So your cervix should have donated. 100% the cervix.
50:35
So she couldn't explain.
She was like, if we'd if you'd have carried on without the C-section, you would have ruptured.
But I obviously instinctively knew that something wasn't right.
But yeah, I still this whole, but still on my records.
50:52
It says failure to progress.
But I had progressed.
I'd done the whole fucking thing.
I'd done the whole length of labour.
I'd done the whole start to finish labour.
I'd done, I'd done it all.
There was no, you know, but my cervix had stayed.
51:11
Sure, it didn't make sense, but at this point I'm feeling really thankful that I've obviously followed my gut instincts and gone for AC section and for people who are listening, this is extremely rare like this is very very very rare.
51:26
Like you would not usually find a cervix that stays shut like that.
Like it's just it's just not a thing.
It's not a thing and if it is, it's usually underlined with a medical condition or you know let's procedure or you know or something something like that, very rare.
51:50
So I still didn't understand at this point.
And again I was just, I was just, I was just numb.
I couldn't watch vaginal births.
I like people messaging me at this time, by the way, like who were pregnant at the same time as me on social media.
52:07
Like I've had my baby.
People were sending me photos, videos, asking me questions.
Did your baby come yet?
Like, it was horrible.
It was so triggering and it was so, like upsetting and I just felt like shit.
52:24
I felt like shit.
Like, I completely dissociated myself if I felt completely just numb.
So numb.
And that took a while before I could watch a vaginal birth video again, you know?
52:43
But when I look back now, I understand a few things.
I know that my pelvic floor is slightly hypertoned.
However, not enough.
What's come out is not enough to warrant a closed service.
53:00
So more investigations need to be done.
But you know, it is what it is.
And you have to.
Just when you're in these situations, when things don't go your your way, I know that I can look back and go, do you know what?
53:17
It didn't go the way I wanted it to go, but I literally navigated every single part of my pregnancy and birth with such fucking grace and with such like informed choice and self trust and intuition.
53:38
Like how can I not be proud of myself and my body and everything.
Being able to guide myself in that way and birth George, how I did like that's incredible.
Absolutely incredible.
53:54
And what wisdom and what growth I've gained from that experience, you know and.
How much?
Other people will learn from it as well, Because there are people who will have had far more questionable risk factors or heard or thrown at them and will not be supported to make those decisions, or will not feel confident to advocate for themselves, or will end up being pushed down a certain path that maybe isn't necessary or isn't what they wanted.
54:33
And I think hearing your story hopefully will help other people make those decisions and have the strength to make those decisions.
Because, I mean, literally everything was thrown at you.
Yeah, everything.
Everything.
Was thrown.
54:49
At you and you you held fast, You held you know.
You, you, you, you, you poured all of your faith into you, listening to your intuition and your body, and you stayed strong.
And it wasn't the birth that that you, you know, originally envisaged, but you still had a say.
55:09
You still right to the very end, you still had a say in how your birth unfolded, even though it wasn't what you originally envisaged.
And I think that's a really important, it's really important message to put out there.
55:28
I really, really do think it is.
Yeah, I agree.
I think that, you know, we often when something is that starts to go off a path or go a different way very often we haven't really built that true self trust.
55:45
So what happens is we just end up giving up we go, oh, like, well, it's going a different plan to what we expected.
And especially when you've got outside voices as well when you're in that vulnerable state, you kind of just go whatever, just get baby out.
56:05
Yeah, you know it.
And yeah, I and it's so easy to be in that situation by the way.
It really is.
And I don't think that we understand obviously because of the amount of programming and conditioning that we are under.
56:24
We don't understand, like, how important it is to really, really deeply trust yourself to be able to take that responsibility for yourself and your actions and ask the questions you know.
56:40
And sometimes it's uncomfortable, Sometimes you're really in uncomfortable situations, which the easiest option is to just go outwards for the answers, right?
Like, you tell me what to do.
You do, you do what you think is best rather than actually owning our power and going, no, hang on, like what feels best for me, This is what I'm faced with.
57:05
It's shit.
But you know, But let's see how we can fucking flip it.
Let's see how we can actually take this and make it still influenced by me, even if it's the furthest away from what we expected.
57:24
So you know, I think that that honestly, like I'm so thankful I had that birth.
Because the wisdom that you gain from experiences like this are just incredible.
The same with loss, you know, The same with any, you know situation where you feel there is no fucking hope.
57:49
Those, those times of darkness are are truly gifts.
They are truly gifts because you if you can work through that, you can really learn, grow and just emit more fucking light at the end of it.
58:06
And yeah, I just, that's what it did for me.
And I'm just so, so thankful that I'm in this position now with all the the learning and experience that I got from that.
Yeah, I think you're inspirational honestly.
58:23
You know the fact that you the fact that you managed to get a maternal assisted Caesarean in a hospital that have never done it before.
I mean Jesus, I would not want to mess with you because you you must have advocated so hard for that like that is and again that's a huge learning point I think for other people that who who just think that it's impossible to get certain things agreed right because it's not the case.
58:50
You know you advocate hard enough If if someone tells you no, you don't take those the first answer, You go and find somebody that will say yes.
Right.
And nothing is impossible.
We all think that things are impossible because we are told things are impossible because we are programmed a condition to believe things are impossible.
59:07
Nothing's impossible.
Absolutely nothing is impossible.
Yeah, honestly I I, I this is, this has been like a theme for me over the these last you know since especially with bomb passing.
I'm just like nothing's impossible.
You're like there's no limits.
59:24
There's no limits to what you you can do, what you can experience and how you choose to experience it.
Just like how I chose to experience my labour.
Like I loved it.
I loved it and I know for I know for a fact now, and this is what's really comforting to me, is that I know now.
59:42
Now I understand what was happening inside my body at the time that should I have not had an issue with my cervix, which is an ongoing investigation, I would have had that baby that night.
Yeah, definitely.
We've had that baby within like a couple of hours.
59:58
After that whole big flush of water with meconium, baby would have come because that's what was happening.
Yeah.
I mean, Can you imagine?
Like.
Can you imagine?
My uterus must have been quite strong to be having those like pushy contractions for that whole time I was in hospital.
1:00:13
Phase.
Whoa.
Like, I mean, you know, I'm so glad I chose that, you know, made the choice that I did.
Yeah.
And I'm so glad that I asked the questions afterwards.
We often do that.
Do we just think oh, whatever.
1:00:29
Then you wouldn't get.
I don't know, I don't.
I don't want to say closure because it's not closure, but understanding of pain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I think it's really important.
And again, I think a lot of people don't do, they don't seek answers.
1:00:44
They don't ask for debriefs.
They don't get their notes.
And I think that's really really important to to because otherwise like otherwise you do just see that failure to progress label and think my body healed, you know not exactly what I.
1:00:59
Mean like it?
Just and actually for most people, let's say like 99, .9% of people.
Even more of you listening to this like will not experience the problem with a cervix.
These cervix like I have experienced like this is like we said, it's extremely rare.
1:01:18
But the failure to progress thing, which seems to just fucking be flippantly just written down all over the place like that doesn't mean your body's broken at all.
Like at all.
And most of most of the time you just need more time, don't you?
1:01:35
Or you need a difference in environment?
Or, you know, there's so many different factors.
Yeah, most of the time it's not failing to progress progress, it's failure to wait.
Yes, honestly, the time this is.
Yeah, the time scales are just.
1:01:53
But I mean, you waited.
You definitely waited.
You gave?
40 lots of.
Time and it was not good thing.
I did and 42 + 5 and it came out and he's perfect, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
1:02:10
I'm I'm.
I really really appreciate you coming on to to share your birth story because I think it is a really brave thing to do.
You know given given you know the the area that we work in and the fact that we talk a lot about physiological birth and we talk a lot about you know how to how to navigate the system and how to avoid medical intervention.
1:02:36
And I I do think again I think it's a really important story to tell because people often accuse us of being anti C-section anti and it's that's not the case.
It's it's being it, it's knowing when it is medically necessary and being able to navigate things so that you are making the those decisions in an informed way and understanding when it is medically necessary.
1:03:04
And you absolutely did that.
And I think that's a it's a really good example of giving it your best go, listening to your body and then identifying actually the C-section is the right choice like instinctively and every other sign is showing me that this is the right choice, this is the safest way to give back to my baby and then like making that decision.
1:03:27
So I think it's really important story to put out there.
This this is the thing because every decision that was made, I made it.
And sometimes like I, you know, it's it can be upsetting, isn't it?
Talking with other people who when, when people will say like I had to or I didn't have a choice or this is what had to happen.
1:03:50
And I just feel like the power is just taken out of our hands so many times, but it's time, It's time to take our power back, You know, it's time to take our power back.
And I hope that this can really help people navigate the system.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So before we finish today, one thing we haven't talked about, which I think is very, very important, is your new book, which I would really like people to go and get copies of.
1:04:17
Do you want to talk a little bit about what your book covers?
Yes.
So the fearless birth book is all right, going from fear to fierce.
And it's it's not about, you know, being fearless as in like, you know, fear shouldn't exist.
1:04:34
It's more about actually taking the fear that we have because we all have it.
We all as humans are programmed and conditioned that way.
But it's actually taking it and being curious, you know, and understanding more about it and leaning into it so much that you become fearless, you know.
1:04:53
So it's a bit of a journey.
It's very different I feel to any birth book.
It's very illustrative.
I do all my own illustrations.
So it's very fun and very, very colourful and and easy to digest.
But it takes you through a journey through your brain, your body, birth, baby and beyond all the bees, which I love.
1:05:16
So it starts with the brain.
It's taking you through a journey of like self trust and self-confidence, how the brain works, like what your brain's telling you, all the hypno birthing techniques, how to reframe, how to you know create you know your reality basically through what you're thinking and really help you connect with yourself.
1:05:37
Like, it's just, this really is the key.
Moving into body.
It's again about body awareness, about trusting your body, about sexuality, hormones.
You know how to work with your body in every way.
You know what labour's going to look like, how that affects your body.
1:05:53
Like, how does it work?
Like, what's the uterus doing?
Like, it really covers just absolutely everything.
And this is where we delve into some of the techniques that people talk about.
When I talk about floppy face, floppy Fanny, Kiko, positioning, partying through labour, like all the things connected to your body.
1:06:09
And by this point, and the reason I've done it like this, if you've gone through the brain and the body section, by the time you get to the next section, which is birth, you're actually feeling really good about yourself.
You're feeling like you've rewired your brain.
You know, you've practised the exercises.
1:06:24
So you get to the birth section and you're like, literally, I feel so ready to now investigate what what's the options are in birth and what my choices are.
And I know that I can trust what I'm doing with that.
So birth section, informed choice.
1:06:40
Oh, also just go back to body, massive section on red flags, body autonomy, all that.
Because that's big.
That's a big deal.
It's a big deal like this is, you know, unfortunately we're in a world where we have to advocate for ourselves.
1:06:57
It just is how it is.
I'm not going to flower flower it up.
So we need to know what body autonomy is, what it looks like.
We cover that as well in the body section.
Birth, everything, you know, you could think of that comes up in birth, what it looks like, how to, you know, make plans, informed choices.
1:07:19
And then we also go into the dilation stuff.
You know, like what other ways can we look out for our body pooping your labour?
You know, like all the things crowning, actually giving birth, breathing baby out and which I just love because people think that you're blowing a candle, but it's really not like that.
1:07:42
Please do read up on it.
Golden hour birth trauma and also baby loss.
I have like there's like 4 pages on rainbow babies and actually birthing a sleeping baby, which I just felt was really important and sometimes not usually brought up in birth books.
1:08:04
But a lot of a lot of women have been through loss and then the baby and beyond, which is really fun.
So talking you through, you know, what you're going to experience, what's happening with your body, what's happening with your newborn, from the simplistic things with your newborn to, you know, the cues and how to change a nappy and the poos and all that.
1:08:28
Taking you through breastfeeding, bottle feeding, the microbiome, colic, colic.
And I say that was like little Bunny quotes because underlying issues.
So we go into CMPA like allergies, other issues that it could be.
Yeah, there there is app literally when I talk through it like that.
1:08:49
There is so much in this book.
I mean what did you think Erin, when you were going from it?
You're like, how is all this in here?
So there's literally so, but I I the thing I think that does make you look.
There's a few things that makes your book unique.
I think 1 is the visual element because your illustrations are iconic and instantly recognisable and they're really fun, which I think is really good.
1:09:16
But I also think, like you said, you cover things that I think a lot of other birth books don't.
The fact that you cover loss and rainbow babies and giving birth to a sleeping baby I think is unique.
Like I can't think of any other books that would cover that, which I think is really important.
1:09:32
And the fact that you cover the postpartum bit as well, I think is really important because so many birth books just focus on up to the birth and they don't focus about anything afterwards.
And I think that's a a key part of education that we neglect.
We don't, we don't focus on and actually, you know, once you've given birth, everything else that comes after that.
1:09:57
I mean, that's like this huge is life changing, you know, And that doesn't stop, it doesn't end.
So the fact that you've got that, I think is really, really important is a hefty Burke.
I'm not going to lie.
I mean, it's not a little skinny Burke.
It's.
I mean obviously because it's got so much in it, but it's.
1:10:15
It's a good size, isn't it?
Like, it's very good.
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
No, I appreciate that.
I mean, I think they're really good points and exactly why I wanted to cover them things so.
Yeah, no, thank you.
Go and get a copy and.
1:10:30
Please.
Yeah, you can order it.
You can order it online.
Amazon Waterstones.
WH Smiths.
Which sounds absolutely insane, like it's just so weird to say that.
But yeah, I'm now an author and accidental illustrator I'd like to say.
1:10:47
And yeah, I I hope this is really going to help just people find the power.
That's that's all we want, you know?
And makes it accessible.
Oh yeah, yeah.
I mean, honestly, like, there's some great books out there, but I find it really hard to sit and read through like just words, words, words, words, words, words, and then be able to remember or take things in.
1:11:13
And I think it'll be fun for Beth Partners to read as well.
Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.
Because I mean you you, you had a birth partner, a really thick, chunky, wordy book, and maybe I'm over generalising here, but I don't think they're going to read it, but I think they probably will read yours.
1:11:28
So hopefully some birth partners get get to their hands on it, so yeah.
Definitely.
Definitely.
Oh, thank you so much for coming on today.
And right.
It's been an emotional roller coaster, but I think it's been, you know, like I said, really fantastic to hear the birth story and some really important key messages I think that you've shared.
1:11:54
And yeah, I can't wait to see what else you do next, because you're just.
You.
Inspirational, so thank you.
Thank you, Erin.
I really appreciate that and thank you so much for having me on again.
Anytime you can.
You can be a repeat guest forever.
Thanks, Erin.
1:12:10
Thank you so much.
The Better Birth Podcast and all of its content is for educational and informational purposes only.
You should consult your midwife or your doctor for anything in relation to your own pregnancy and birth.
1:12:30
The opinions and the views of the guests on The Better Birth Podcast are their own opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Better Birth or Erin Fung.